The Sundering of the Community - UB Anet's Double-Edged Sword

[Racthoh]

Originally Posted by leprekan

it looks more like trying to protect your farm from new people than an actual concern for balance.

I'd like to see Save Yourselves! go, There's Nothing To Fear! go, Ursan Blessing as well, and to a lesser extent Seed of Life (with such a short duration it does require some player awareness to use it well). Essence of Celerity and Armour of Salvation also needs... something less. Grail of Might aren't that spectacular but should also be removed. I don't understand why an area has "elite" prefixed onto it when the only thing different about it is the amount of time you spend there. There are too many tools as our disposal to turn any area into a joke, it's absurd.

Concerning my greens, I don't consider selling my Stygian Wand for 1k much of a farm, or a few staves for 10kish, when I dump 30k a day on consumables to speed things up. I think the last time I was concerned about the amount of gold I had was when I didn't want to buy the gladiator's chest piece for my warrior because I didn't want his chest exposed so I saved up for Obsidian. That, or when Superior Absorption were 100k and were good.

[leprekan]

Originally Posted by Racthoh

I'd like to see Save Yourselves! go, There's Nothing To Fear! go, Ursan Blessing as well, and to a lesser extent Seed of Life (with such a short duration it does require some player awareness to use it well). Essence of Celerity and Armour of Salvation also needs... something less. Grail of Might aren't that spectacular but should also be removed. I don't understand why an area has "elite" prefixed onto it when the only thing different about it is the amount of time you spend there. There are too many tools as our disposal to turn any area into a joke, it's absurd.

Concerning my greens, I don't consider selling my Stygian Wand for 1k much of a farm, or a few staves for 10kish, when I dump 30k a day on consumables to speed things up. I think the last time I was concerned about the amount of gold I had was when I didn't want to buy the gladiator's chest piece for my warrior because I didn't want his chest exposed so I saved up for Obsidian. That, or when Superior Absorption were 100k and were good.

Question still applies ... why? There isn't anything hard in gw to begin with. I have done h+h everything now even Duncan hm. And didn't UB him If a PvE ONLY skill helps Joe noob to be able to play more areas than he could before .. why nerf it? To keep elite areas elite so people can feel pro? UB is no worse than the generic OB tank standing around with the cookie cutters.

I am not attacking you .. I just do not grasp why you would care. You are not going to take Joe noob into that group of friends to begin with. Why does it matter if Joe noob finds others to do it with then? Anyone that is any good is already playing with friends/guild only or heroes.

Nerf consumables? LOL? Nobody makes ANYONE use them. Kind of nice to have a use for the 1000s of spare skill points we now have. If they made them less effective people wouldn't bother using them. Nerfing ANY PvE ONLY skill makes zero sense in a game where player x does not affect player y.

I didn't mean you were farming the greens .. they are the detritus from farming gems for armbraces. I stopped bothering when armbraces dropped below 200e.

[Racthoh]

Originally Posted by leprekan

Question still applies ... why? There isn't anything hard in gw to begin with.

For some yes, for others, no. There are a number of people who find a lot of content in the game to be fairly difficult. Ursan Blessing allows players to succeed where they previously would've failed, not because they got better at the game, because a strong skill carried them through. I'd much rather a player works towards improving their ability to play than grinding their PvE skill to max rank.

[Crom The Pale]

And so you believe that if a player is incapable of gaining the needed skill to complete an elite zone he must forever be baned from it?

How about those on dial up that have lag issues and no voice chat? Should they also be baned because they can not match your skill lvl?


The Elite zones were not placed in GW to be accessed by only a few players, they were added as end game content for anyone that had completed the needed campain. They were meant to be harder than the last mission, but not so hard that it was impossible to beat for those that have less skill than the perfectly balanced Elite Guild Party of friends that took a month or more to figure out how to beat Mallyx without using some form of glitch.

[Faer]

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

And so you believe that if a player is incapable of gaining the needed skill to complete an elite zone he must forever be baned from it?

That's totally not what he said.

Look:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Ursan Blessing allows players to succeed where they previously would've failed, not because they got better at the game, because a strong skill carried them through.

In other words, Racthoh wants to see people win because they learn, not because they find the mystical key or the silver platter.

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

How about those on dial up that have lag issues and no voice chat? Should they also be baned because they can not match your skill lvl?

I often play on sub-dialup connections with no issues. I don't know where people get the idea that a 56k connection makes GW entirely unplayable, or even any more "difficult" than it is on DSL or Cable or like, T3.

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

The Elite zones were not placed in GW to be accessed by only a few players

Not even commenting on that one.

[unienaule]

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

How about those on dial up that have lag issues and no voice chat? Should they also be baned because they can not match your skill lvl?

Ursan blessing removes lag? Wow, it's more overpowered than I thought!

If you're sitting there doing nothing b/c of lag, you're still sitting there doing nothing, just with ursan blessing on you.

Also, are you seriously trying to argue that Mallyx was designed to be beatable by the masses?

[tanis616]

Originally Posted by leprekan

Having a link to your greens for sale from DoA ... is somebody worried noobs might be able to farm them too? DoA was cookie cutter 6 months ago when I got bored with it and moved on. UB won't make that any worse. No offense, but given the volume of greens you have for sale .. it looks more like trying to protect your farm from new people than an actual concern for balance.

This is not the point, we dont care that you guys are making money good for you. But UB is overpowered. You can beat an ELITE mission with 1 skill. One. Obvisouly you dont see the point.

[trobinson97]

Originally Posted by tanis616

This is not the point, we dont care that you guys are making money good for you. But UB is overpowered. You can beat an ELITE mission with 1 skill. One. Obvisouly you dont see the point.

That one skill replaces your bar with another bar. You also need monks with a lot more than that one skill. Aggro, knowledge of area, target priority etc. are not discarded either I imagine.

[cebalrai]

Originally Posted by trobinson97

That one skill replaces your bar with another bar. You also need monks with a lot more than that one skill. Aggro, knowledge of area, target priority etc. are not discarded either I imagine.

How is it that you need monks more when you get a couple hundred more max hps and another +15 or +20 armor?

And when you get an AoE knockdown/interrupt to prevent damage against you?

And when you get a speed boost to get away from whatever is threatening you?

Seriously... tell me.

[Crom The Pale]

Originally Posted by unienaule

Ursan blessing removes lag? Wow, it's more overpowered than I thought!

If you're sitting there doing nothing b/c of lag, you're still sitting there doing nothing, just with ursan blessing on you.

Also, are you seriously trying to argue that Mallyx was designed to be beatable by the masses?

No ursan does not eliminate lag...... it was just to make a point you missed.


Do you believe that only 5% of the total player base should be able to beat Mallyx? Why? Because it makes you feel special????

[draxynnic]

Originally Posted by Faer

I often play on sub-dialup connections with no issues. I don't know where people get the idea that a 56k connection makes GW entirely unplayable, or even any more "difficult" than it is on DSL or Cable or like, T3.

Back in alpha, we had three people sharing a 33k connection with no problems. I wouldn't suggest it now, but that's more due to the size of map downloads than due to the gameplay itself.

Most online games only require a small amount of actual data transfer - I find that the fact that the data has to go across the Pacific and back impacts on gameplay more than the connection 'speed' (more technically a connection rate, since the data still moves at the same speed, it's just that with 'faster' connections you can have more data moving at once).

[Razz Thom]

the point is it makes you somehow feel less "1337" if someone else can go where you have been. it has no bearing on you so just let it go. leet snobs sux anyway.

[trobinson97]

Originally Posted by cebalrai

How is it that you need monks more when you get a couple hundred more max hps and another +15 or +20 armor?

And when you get an AoE knockdown/interrupt to prevent damage against you?

And when you get a speed boost to get away from whatever is threatening you?

Seriously... tell me.

UB has no heals. Or maybe you're trying to tell me that you can now do DoA with no healing? Seriously, are you trying to tell me that? Also, let's not pretend that everyone that everyone has max Norn rank. Sure you can get up to plus 200, but you have to have that title maxed. Even then, you will still need to be healed, and you will still have to be coordinated.

IF everyone uses Ursan Rage at the same time, the target will still only be knocked down once, there's still 9 seconds you're going to be getting wailed on until you can knock down again. You would have to chain your Rages to maximize the knockdown effect and that would be making an argument that UB takes strategy and tactics, i.e. skill, surely you don't want to do that.

There's also the fact that your target has to be adjacent to you to even be affected, so surely the ai isn't going to be standing waiting on you to come knock it down. They will be hitting you or someone in your party, and someone will have to heal that damage. You also have to get those hexes and conditions removed (especially since that speed buff from Force is nothing if you're crippled and running with your back to the enemy).

[draxynnic]

I think what you've missed there is that the question was "How is it that you need monks more?" Emphasis mine.

Cebalrai didn't claim that the bears didn't require support. He seems to be objecting to an apparent claim from you that bears require more support... which is not actually what you said either.

To be honest, I think you're both misinterpreting each other without taking the time to read what the other actually said.

[trobinson97]

Originally Posted by draxynnic

I think what you've missed there is that the question was "How is it that you need monks more?" Emphasis mine.

Cebalrai didn't claim that the bears didn't require support. He seems to be objecting to an apparent claim from you that bears require more support... which is not actually what you said either.

To be honest, I think you're both misinterpreting each other without taking the time to read what the other actually said.

I think you're right, thanks for clarification.

[Mesmer in Need]

Guild wars is a game, something meant for pleasure. If people have fun while using UB, then it makes the game that much better for them. People who favor professions like mesmer and assassin would have probably never gotten the chance to finish the deep or do doa. Now they can do this. Before GW:EN, placed like doa took at least 20 minutes of planning and careful play to do. Many people don't have the skill, time or patience for this. Anet nerfs pve skills to make the game more "challenging", but not everybody's idea of fun is having enemies plow you. I'm in no way promoting lazy play, but it's supposed to be fun, not frustrating. Skills like UB make it less frustrating for those people. And besides, its pve. Playing pve how you want is by no means ruining other people's day. My vote is to just leave it alone.

As a side note, I believe Rachthoh is the biggest hypocrite of this thread. He is complaining how UB is ruining pve. Have you ever looked at this guy's fow clearing pictures? 6 paragons spamming TNTF and SY! with all the gw:en consumables working their magic. Rachthoh got legendary vanquisher before gw:en even came out. Oh, how the (somewhat) mighty have fallen.

[Burst Cancel]

Well, the difference between Racthoh and the up-and-coming keyboard karate-choppers is that Racthoh needed a real team and more than one skill to win. The issue here isn't whether something is strictly better or worse. The issue is whether something is too good for the amount of effort required to use it.

I like fighting game examples, so I'm going to use another one here: Guilty Gear features many combos that inflict in excess of 80+% of your health. However, these aren't considered 'broken' because they're often especially hard to setup or execute. In other words, it takes a lot of effort to get that kind of effect, and hence, such effect is not overpowered. It would be an entirely different matter if, like Ursan Blessing, these combos were available with one button press.

[arcanemacabre]

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

Do you believe that only 5% of the total player base should be able to beat Mallyx? Why? Because it makes you feel special????

I believe that, and I am in the 95% - I can't beat Mallyx. Well, I can't beat him now. I have no problem with there existing areas in the game that I don't have the skill, coordination, experience, whatever to defeat it. That is a goal worth working for, not obsidian armor, grind titles, wealth, and other things that that require no gameplay skill to acquire. I agree wholeheartedly with what Racthoh is saying.

The skill you gain as a player being greater than the skills your character uses is what brought me to Guild Wars in the first place. It's fun beating a mission, but it's a lot more fun to beat a mission after having lost it. If there was nothing left in the game to challenge me, I would be done with it - it would become boring. I honestly think that's true for everyone.

[Racthoh]

Originally Posted by Mesmer in Need

As a side note, I believe Rachthoh is the biggest hypocrite of this thread. He is complaining how UB is ruining pve. Have you ever looked at this guy's fow clearing pictures? 6 paragons spamming TNTF and SY! with all the gw:en consumables working their magic. Rachthoh got legendary vanquisher before gw:en even came out. Oh, how the (somewhat) mighty have fallen.

Firstly six paragons with TNTF would just be a huge waste of skill slots when every paragon is running at least 12 leadership, ditto for SY considering the lack of physical shutdown in FoW; we hit the impalers before they drop Dust Trap and usually spread out for Blurred.

Second, by no means are the consumables and pve only skills necessary for us to complete FoW. It's FoW, I've been there so many times I know all of the patrols, popups, group compositions, you name it off by heart. And hell, cleared every quest with a group of three people with prophecies only skills (Skull Cracking one second casts before it got buffed to 1/2, boo ya ). The use of PvE only skills and consumables merely speed up the process allowing us to play recklessly in a zone that almost put me to sleep tonight (but I had the heroes, I can't exactly take a quick snooze ).

Ursan to me is fine in that sense; when a player is fully capable of displaying the skill required to complete a task go ahead and abuse what you want. What I can only hope is that once players get tired of the bear they'll attempt what they resorted to Ursaning for with a more balanced approach. At least try and apply what you learned about the zone after you've had your fun with it. We took the opposite route; cleared it with the more balanced approach first before exploring the possibilities.

Think about it this way; they're well aware of what PvE skills are allowing players to do. If they kill every PvE skill responsible for the current state of 'difficult' content those of us who took the time to study the area will be able to continue playing the same zone as a result of past experiences. I would wager that most Ursaners (I would guess based on some of the silly things I've read in the recent skill update thread) would just outright stop whatever they were using the bear for if the skill is touched negatively. This is what I fear; the people who will immediately quit because they don't know how to apply what they learned and adapt. Personally I would much rather be with the group that adjusts than the group that sits around until someone else figures it out for me.

[Cacheelma]

Originally Posted by Mesmer in Need

Guild wars is a game, something meant for pleasure. If people have fun while using UB, then it makes the game that much better for them. People who favor professions like mesmer and assassin would have probably never gotten the chance to finish the deep or do doa. Now they can do this. Before GW:EN, placed like doa took at least 20 minutes of planning and careful play to do. Many people don't have the skill, time or patience for this. Anet nerfs pve skills to make the game more "challenging", but not everybody's idea of fun is having enemies plow you. I'm in no way promoting lazy play, but it's supposed to be fun, not frustrating. Skills like UB make it less frustrating for those people. And besides, its pve. Playing pve how you want is by no means ruining other people's day. My vote is to just leave it alone.

I bet some people had fun with armbrace duping (or "insert any exploits here") too. It enabled them to obtain some items they could only dream about normally. So, was it a mistake that Anet fixed it?

I, for one, would want a "god mode" button for my little brother too. It would make him very happy (without me paying for GWEN so he can use UB, so I'd be happy too). Maybe Anet can just make that happen too? I mean, why not? It would make the game THAT MUCH better for him.